Centre For Local Research into Public Space (CELOS)
Show search options
You are on the [Beer Gardens Correspondence] page of folder [Park Research]
For the cover page of this folder go to the Correspondence about park beer gardens during post-covid recovery
May 25, 2020, email to city public oven friends
One of the people who started Friday night suppers at Dufferin Grove Park back in 2003 said to me last week -- beer gardens would be easy to locate in parks that already have ovens. The point, she said, is to give some local restaurants a chance to stay afloat -- and incidentally to make the parks more enjoyable and still have lots of space for people to keep a distance.
As my contribution, I just finished making a web page for this possibility, here. Have a look.
Joel Campbell (Sorauren Park oven): I'm interested in any way of sparking more use of our oven. And this dovetails well with some of the work FOSP has been doing to encourage people to support our local business.
Keep me in the loop please!
May 26, 2020
Jode Roberts (Christie Pits oven): I'm keen. As you know, we've hosted beer gardens with Pizzeria Libretto and other food vendors in Christie Pits for a few years. It was a constant struggle with the permits office and wasn't a great revenue generator (relative to permit costs, security, etc). But it is totally worthwhile. Happy to help nudge this along.
Gail Ferguson (Fairmount Park oven): Personally, I am not ready to even imagine the reopening of our Fairmount Park Bake Oven, let alone a Beer Garden in our park at this time.
Dale Howey (Montgomery Inn oven): I think that the idea of a beer garden is an attractive one. Montgomerys Inn has hosted beer tasting sessions and I think they were popular but I have never attended. In hindsight I’m curious that they never requested pizza as an accompaniment. I agree with Jode that your biggest challenge may be the city. We buy beer and wine for Thirsty Thursdays through the Innovators so it is much easier to get the liquor license but these are different times so they might be up to it.
I would also like to see a root beer garden as well for the younger set and myself as I’m not particularly fond of beer.
June 3, 2020: email sent to 110 people in the Dufferin Grove neighbourhood, plus three neighbourhood listservs
The mayor has said that he'd like restaurant patios to open up (soon?). Maybe that could save a few neighbourhood restaurants from going under financially. But there are many friendly local eateries that are too small to have a patio -- or at least one that can space people out enough and still make a living.
Germans have beer gardens, also known for good cheap food and often live music (and they're family-friendly places, which means good behavior). Their open-air beer gardens have begun to reopen, with enough space to distance easily. Toronto has many outdoor public bake ovens in parks, some even with kitchens. When one of the founders of Friday Night Supper suggested to me that maybe local restaurants could run them as beer gardens, I made a page on the CELOS website, here. Have a look, at possible locations in the city.
Any interest?
Kate Watson: Sure! Bring on the beer gardens!
Larry Lewis: Great idea....rollout the kegs. Would like to be involved.
Mark Thoburn: Love this idea
Geraldine Dempsey: Love this!
June 4, 2020
Marin DeLuca-Hopward: Thanks for sending this. It would provide employment and an opportunity for local restaurants to work in community space.
Skylar Hill-Jackson: Of course! Makes perfect sense. What can we do to help promote this to the powers-that-be???
Susan Cunningham: I think there is a lot of potential for out-of -the-box initiatives like this. I heard about what they are doing in Vilnius, Lithuania on CBC https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/lithuania-covid-coronavirus-vilnius-restaurants-outdoors-1.5558666
This northern European city has moved its bars and restaurants outside. Will customers follow?
Vilnius, the capital of the Baltic nation of Lithuania, has created a giant outdoor café so its restaurants, bars and eateries can safely reopen. But is it a viable long-term solution that can be replicated in other cities that are preparing to lift COVID-19 restrictions? www.cbc.ca
It made me think of Dundas West fest when local restaurants and bars were able to extend their outdoor seating into the street. There's pedestrian Sunday in Kensington, why not pedestrian weekends on Dundas?
Lily Weston: That sounds like a wonderful idea!
Gail Skikevitch: I think it's a great idea. Hope it will come to fruition.
John Noyes: this is a brilliant idea. When we lived in Berlin, one of our favourite places was a beautiful beer garden with benches under trees. They served delicious pizza and Turkish food. It was right next to a huge playground, where our daughter played while we sat and relaxed. Drunken or unruly behaviour? Not a trace!
Could we please have our counsellor weigh in on this?
Annette Mangaard: As someone who has also enjoyed the beer gardens in Berlin I second this excellent idea!
From Andrea Holtslander: I love the idea of getting the outdoor ovens and eating outside going again. I have mixed feelings about serving alcohol with them which I can’t say are completely coherent- I really loved Quebec‘s more open attitude to alcohol when I lived there. Negative experiences with addicts could sum up my other feelings, and enjoying spaces which are “substance” free, which I know makes me sound very starchy. At the same time, I would like to have a beer outside too and not feel stealthy.
From Jutta to Councillor Ana Bailao, MPP Marit Stiles, city recreation supervisor Donna Densmore, Dufferin Grove part-time recreation staff, baker and cook Heidrun:
Hi there, I imagine you may have seen this question I sent around yesterday -- I've had about a dozen replies so far, and want to find out if there's any interest among the small restaurants or bar owners, maybe also ask the BIAs. Anything of this sort would need some advisory guidance and support from experienced park staff.
Thoughts?
No response from MPP Marit Stiles, the recreation supervisor, or the baker.
Jeannie Stiglic: I think this is a great idea worth exploring quickly. I think the complicating issue will be the assignment of evenings: my understanding (and also experience as a diner) suggests that Wednesday-Saturday are the busiest in the resto biz, esp Thu, Fri & Saturday. And Sunday, Monday, Tuesday are not so busy so there may not be takers. (Though if it is a family based thing, there might be some interest?) Also, restaurants that do have patios should probably not be offered this option (for example The Burdock or Three Speed, both of which I like very much but they have outdoor space versus a resto like Idle which I also like very much, but which does not have any outdoor space. I ordered food from Idle yesterday and it was something I discussed with the owner Helen. She can open the windows to her resto but there is no room on the sidewalk for a patio.)
Has anyone approached various restaurant owners?
June 5, 2020
Michael Giles, chief of staff for Councilor Bailao:
Thank you for your e-mail regarding the suggestion of having beer gardens in parks.
We appreciate your e-mail and the recommendation. We will share this with your Emergency Operations Centre for their review with City staff.
There may be some challenges to this. Among them would be provincial licensing guidelines including the need for a special occasion permit. Some events do arrange for beer gardens, etc. but they require the hiring of security staff and possibly a paid duty police officer which of course would involve considerable cost. Again, these would be requirements from the provincial Alcohol and Gaming Commission. They would also include secure areas in relation to the requirement with respect to the 19 year old minimum age to consume alcohol. Other considerations would relate to public health guidelines including access to bathrooms and hand sanitation stations. Finally, the provincial emergency order still in place restricts gatherings to no more than 5 people. This order has been extended to the end of June but may change to allow slightly more people at gatherings but presumably this would be increased to 10 or 15 so this might also be a challenge.
I point these considerations out as they are considerations that would need to be reviewed.
Jutta to Michael Giles: thank you for this very complete answer. It is helpful in particular because I can forward it to the province re their liquor licensing permits, and maybe also to the premier's red tape reduction office.
What is at issue here is the summer-2020 temporary transfer of certain existing food operations for existing vendors who do not have good patio space -- and are not located on a street that can be narrowed to allow a temporary or enlarged patio with extra distanced tables. The issue is not special events, it's economic survival. And vendors who currently have an alcohol license would of course continue to follow the existing rules about underage drinking, server certification etc.
I assume that when the mayor said the city will be encouraging restaurant patio service, he did not intend to limit that to 5 people.
Would you advise us to contact the chair of the city's economic development committee?
Siobhan: I spent a few weeks in Germany a few years ago, and it was a very chill and relaxed environment. I see no difference between beer gardens and the existing patio setup and I would be in favour.
Bruce Cox: When the first outdoor patios were proposed in Toronto there was considerable push back form neighbours decrying noise, drunkenness, rowdy behaviour etc. But common sense prevailed and patios are now a huge part of our city's appeal. Having said that, i am also reluctant to hand over public space to private interests - big or small. I would be very cautious before proceeding.
Herschel Stroyman: delightful - good thinking heaped-high on the plate . . .
From Jutta to National Post reporter Bruce Platt: I just read your article "Could Covid-19 make our cities more European?"
I'm forwarding a related query I put out in the neighbourhood yesterday..... If the Post is following up on this alcohol-with-food-in-parks issue, and you'd like to have a chat, my number is 416 533-0153. I can send you the councillor's reply too, if you like.
No response
Forward of original beer garden email to littleportugalondundasbia@gmail.com: is there any interest among your restaurant members, in this possibility? I have long experience with park bake ovens and with Parks and Rec, would be glad to talk in more detail. Let me know.
Forward of original beer garden email to bloorcourtbia@gmail.com: is there any interest among your restaurant members, in this possibility? I have long experience with park bake ovens and with Parks and Rec, would be glad to talk in more detail. Let me know.
From Michael Giles, Councilor Bailao's office: Thank you for your further e-mail. We have asked the City's Emergency Operations Centre to review this with relevant City staff which would include Economic Development staff.
The reference to the special occasion permit was in regard to securing from the AGCO a license to sell alcohol in a location other than a licensed establishment which I believe may be required. The province could of course amend their liquor licensing laws to allow off-site sale of alcohol.
In terms of the additional numbers (above 5 people) the Emergency Order from the province remains in place and even with respect to restaurants the City is awaiting changes from the provincial government to allow restaurants and bars to open. The additional patio space would of course require a change to provincial regulations. The City has been working with the province to allow for alcohol to be sold in the expanded patio areas and we understand from the Mayor's comments at yesterday's press conference that these discussions are going well and hopefully this will be permitted by the province.
As noted, we have shared this with our Emergency Operations staff to review this.
from Jutta to MPP Prabmeet Sarkaria, associate minister for small business and red tape reduction under Premier Doug Ford: I posted this beer-gardens-in-parks suggestion around various neighbourhood e-lists yesterday, and got quite a bit of positive response. The city councillor's office sent a list of many regulatory blocks, though -- is this economic issue of interest to your small business and red tape reduction office?
I have a long history of connection with the public bake ovens referred to in my proposal and would like to talk to someone in your office about it -- to pass along your suggestions to our community.
I will follow up with a phone call later.
from Jutta to Elizabeth Pile, constituency assistant to MPP Pragmeet Singh Sarkaria: here's the email I sent to your Minister's office this morning. As you see, the community email at the bottom of this thread has a link to the page I made from our publicbakeovens.ca website, showing the parks with outdoor ovens that might work as "beer gardens" for small restaurants that have no patio.
I'll call you again next week to follow up.
From the Bloorcourt BIA: I will be sending out some communication this weekend to the member businesses and if anyone is interested I can have them contact you directly?
We may have to double check permits for the parks as I believe at this moment the City is not issuing any park, event, street closure/street festival permits so I don’t know if the bake ovens fall under that.
Thanks for reaching out.
June 11, 2020
Michael Giles, chief of staff for Councilor Bailao:
CafeTO/patio expansion program is part of the AGCO Liquor License Act amendment and is not meant to establish systems for alcohol sales or beer garden near bake ovens in parks. The goal of the program is to improve restaurants and bar sales by making it easier for patio expansion which will increase capacity of these existing locations.
Temporary beer gardens in parks would be considered part of a special event and be subject to the relevant permit application processes and requirements. Permits for special events in parks are prohibited as this time as not to encourage social gatherings. If the City of Toronto were to consider semi-permanent or seasonal beer gardens in Parks, potential vendors would be invited to submit a proposal through a competitive RFP process. This is currently not under consideration.
June 16,2020
The city's open air "CafeTO" guidebook